TheBoards

Go Back   TheBoards > Basketball > Otherhoops

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27-05-2009, 09:34 AM   #1
Durbansandshark
Member
Default Vancouver: Why Didn't The NBA Succeed There? Version 2.0

What prompted me to write about that city and the NBA again was reading the news on the forums of the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics at www.gamesbids.com--I'm a member on those boards too and utilize the same board name here, albeit as two words. There, I spotted a story from the Vancouver Province about the Indiana Pacers being up for sale and possibly bought by Vancouver Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini offering to move them there. But Aquilini denies this.

I don't like this. There's too much tradition, success, and establishment in Indianapolis that's been built up over four decades. I can understand the Simon brothers, Herb and Melvin, wanting to sell, to offset any issues with their mall ownerships or to get leverage for a new arena deal. If you know anything about the state of Indiana, it's the residents' fervent love of basketball to the point of religion ("In 49 states it's basketball. But this is Indiana..."). Aquilini needs to just focus on the Canucks for now and the court case over the ownership controversy already at the Supreme Court of Canada.

Memphis is going to up for sale soon, as possibly Sacramento, but bring the Grizz back!

I just became a new member of www.vancouvernba.com. Haven't posted anything yet there. I'll introduce myself over there with my shortened name. I happily invite you Aussies and Kiwis over there. I'll get more thoughts carried over from the last years since I originally wrote this.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29-05-2009, 06:34 AM   #2
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

In an early December 2008 ESPN.com podcast interview with ESPN's Bill Simmons, NBA Commissioner David Stern made a startling admission that the NBA screwed up in Vancouver. When Simmons asked Stern what was his biggest regret as the head of the league, Stern replied Vancouver's short life in the NBA saying it's "a great city. We disappointed them and we disappointed ourselves." Adding that he questions that maybe the NBA shouldn't have expanded there at all and just added Toronto.

Of course, Vancouver spent six awful season in the Lower BC Mainland with not even a whiff of playoff contention or an All-Star Weekend, before leaving for Memphis in 2001. Then again, Toronto has yet to host the latter itself. Bad players (mixed with a few solid ones like Abdur-Rahim, Bibby, and Dickerson), bad draft picks, and ill-fitting coaches to amassed an awfully bad 101-359 record there.

But don't get your hopes up, any of you fans wishing for a Vancouver return soon. In any case, if Vancouver is going to come back in the NBA fraternity, it will be well after the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics, hopefully once the whole wide world says what the city has to offer and be on the lips of the public. So devastating was the Vancouver experience, Stern says the league has basically ruled out such a return. It took New Orleans 24 years after the Jazz left their original home for Salt Lake City to get back into the NBA by taking another team. Besides, the NBA has no plans to expand in the future. There's still some bitter feelings upon the departure after its first impression within the Metro Vancouver area; it clearly wasn't the fans' fault. When asked about a potential NBA return to Vancouver, Stern says, "I don't think we could ever go back. I think it [is] a great city. But we didn't take advantage of the opportunity."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...11/219167.aspx
http://www.vancouversun.com/Sports/h...631/story.html
(read the feedback following the latter)

One thing I wished the Vancouver-era Grizzlies could've done more was aggressively tap into the lucrative and growing Chinese, South Asian, and other immigrant communities, who are possibly more interested in other sports than (ice) hockey (the Canucks), the CFL's British Columbia Lions, minor league baseball of the Canadians, and rugby--the MLS is coming with the Whitecaps in 2011. It was only during the last season there, the Grizzlies even bothered with a Chinese-language version of their official website. Radio game coverage in Chinese and Hindi would've helped.

If the Grizzlies were still in Vancouver right now, this is how the Northwest Division configuration would resemble:

Denver Nuggets
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Utah Jazz
Vancouver Grizzlies

Oklahoma City Thunder (yuck! ) would leave for the more geographically natural Southwest Division, practically switching division with the Grizz.

Micheal Heisley felt in part that Memphis has greater practice with pro basketball in the minors and with the ABA, Memphis (St.)'s success in the college game, and a more grassroots basketball footing than Vancouver was a better fit. Well let's see, Memphis had the ABA's Pros, Tams, and Sounds, the Rockers (WBL), the Hot Shots in the Global Basketball Asociation (relocated to Pensacola, Florida mid-season), Memphis Fire (USBL), and then the Houn'Dawgs in the current joke incarnation of the ABA. That may be the case, but attendance isn't justifying the prior experience.

The Memphis Grizzlies right now are, in the words of one commentator, "a welfare case supported by Federal Express". He was shocked to spot 3000 fans at the modern FedEx Forum at a Grizzlies game. If Heisley stops cutting the checks, that team is "toast", saying Vancouver was better. Vancouver is undoubtably larger in population and fan base than what Memphis has. Attendance averages comparisions of Vancouver (General Motors Place) and Memphis (FedEx Forum) bear it out in Vancouver's favor and support (all 41 home game each season, excludes playoffs since Vancouver never made it): www.apbr.org/attendance.html

Vancouver Grizzlies

1995-96: 17,183
1996-97: 16,574
1997-98: 16,109
1998-99: 16,719
1999-00: 13,899
2000-01: 13,797

Memphis Grizzlies

2001-02: 14,415
2002-03: 14,910
2003-04: 15,188
2004-05: 16,982
2005-06: 15,793
2006-07: 14,654
2007-08: 12,770
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 11-09-2010 at 05:00 AM. Reason: added links
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2009, 09:30 AM   #3
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Vancouverite basketball fans must have a sense of schadenfruede when Forbes magazine recently proclaimed the Memphis Grizzlies as the worst-run sports franchise in North America (minor league teams need not apply here). Again, is it the city's fault that Stu Jackson didn't know how to operate a team? Is it Vancouver's fault that Steve Francis blew off Vancouver? Is it the city's fault that Michael Heisley had an agenda to actually move them and did so?

I personally think, based on the evidence like attendance, despite the two playoff appearances in Memphis, I'd think Vancouver deserves a second chance soon. If Charlotte and New Orleans can return to the NBA, Vancouver can too...but not before Seattle. That rumour about a mangement group taking the Indiana Pacers and moving up there is just exactly that, a rumour. Indiana basketball fans will continue to support them in the long run. In this economy, NBA commissioner Stern made it clear and admitted the state of the league and that soem teams are in trouble financially. If this recession doesn't end in North America like in Vancouver, look for some teams to seek elsewhere. Perhaps that explains why the NBA, NFL, and MLB went to federal court to support the NHL's efforts to keep the cash-strapped and bankrupt Phoenix Coyotes, ironically moved from Winnipeg, Manitoba in 1996, in the Valley of the Sun. No league wants to lose control where their franchises can go.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 21-10-2010 at 08:38 AM.
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-07-2009, 05:11 AM   #4
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

I know for a fact that Lenny Wilkens, prior to being lured back for a sadly brief time in Seattle, was in discussions with rich and potential Vancouver investors over the subject of getting the city back in the NBA be it with an expansion team or moving a franchise up there. But nothing newsworthy came out. Besides, the NBA isn't planning to expand any time soon. Maybe Lenny resumed looking into that. I don't know for sure.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-07-2009, 05:09 PM   #5
A Really Bad Bass Player
White Line Fever
 
A Really Bad Bass Player's Avatar
Send a message via MSN to A Really Bad Bass Player Send a message via Skype™ to A Really Bad Bass Player
Default

I've got a friend who married a good mate of mine, she is a native of Vancouver, and spoke to me of the heartbreak the city felt, and the betrayal. I think D+S's attendence stats are very interesting reading. Meagan believed another basketball franchise would be a goer in B.C., but I think the NBA needs to make sure a oke like Francis can never happen again. You sign up to play in the NBA, you go where you are drafted. You don't like it? See how Italy or Poland are, because that is where you are going. It also needs the Raptors to be actually succesful for longer than one season, and play regular pre-season and even some early season matches out of there.

I hope Vancouver gets another shot.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Customer
Onya Bass (that's your new nickname - everyone take note).
A Really Bad Bass Player is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2009, 02:05 PM   #6
glockers
Member
Default

I was in Vancouver earlier this year. A really great city with a ready made arena. It was covered in fog, but I still liked the vibe of the place. The snow fields on its outskirts are cool too.

But I don't see expansion happening anytime soon and as mentioned losing Indiana would be a terrible idea.

I think having Memphis and Oklahoma are good things for the NBA. They are in that college basketball heartland. In fact I think the NBA pretty much as their teams in the right places.

Problem is whether smaller markets can truly compete for the title. Reducing the cap might help.

Sacramento and Boston are my teams, I do feel maybe Sacramento is the least justified NBA market. Yet a few years ago they were selling out and massively successful.

I guess some the issues belong in a different thread.

My point is Seattle, Vegas and Vancouver are the three North American cities that can feel ripped off about having no team, but I don't see room for more teams and I don't see what teams can be moved?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by meg View Post
He's like Ralph Schnitzel without the schnitzel.
glockers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2009, 10:49 AM   #7
redred
Member
Sufw

I used to live in Vancouver & Toronto, before coming home to Aus for awhile.. The support for the Raps in T-dot is manic. They are crazy for NBA basketball over there, and see the neighbouring NY Knicks as a true rival, but the problem is the American players prefer to play on their own soil. The Raps have to massively overpay to attract American free agents etc. Plus it seems like a lot of American media is against them doing well, too.

Now that the game is a lot more international it's easier for them (just check out how international their roster looks for next season! It's like Euro All Star lineup) but trying to build like this in two different cities would be difficult imo. It's hard enough to attract free agents to one Canadian city, even when this city is one of the biggest and wealthiest in the league.

Vancouver doesn't really strike me as a manic basketball town- which is what it would need to be for a Canadian franchise to survive and do well. They are so laid back and hockey-loving, a lot of people didn't seem to care one way or the other about an NBA ball club. They only remember Big Country Reeves and shrug.

So yeah, no basketball in Vancouver. I really don't think it's llikely.


As far as NBA cities just waiting to move though- i reckon Memphis whose owners are like the new Clippers & Milwaukee is on thin ice.
__________________
T-dot Raps & Sydney.. uhh Flames?
redred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2009, 05:45 AM   #8
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Something to tide us over until I write my additional thoughts. An interesting breakdown at the big Canadian cities outside of Toronto that could host a NBA franchise. Notice Quebec City, home of the Kebs in the PBL and former home of the NHL's Nordiques isn't a part of the discussion (basketball isn't as big there). Halifax, the largest city in the Marintime provinces in Nova Scotia, is too small and distant to be mentioned but has a passion and support for basketball. Each have their pros and cons, but I like to see Vancouver get a second chance.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ba-destination
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2009, 09:00 AM   #9
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redred View Post
I used to live in Vancouver & Toronto, before coming home to Aus for awhile.. The support for the Raps in T-dot is manic. They are crazy for NBA basketball over there, and see the neighbouring NY Knicks as a true rival, but the problem is the American players prefer to play on their own soil. The Raps have to massively overpay to attract American free agents etc. Plus it seems like a lot of American media is against them doing well, too.

Now that the game is a lot more international it's easier for them (just check out how international their roster looks for next season! It's like Euro All Star lineup) but trying to build like this in two different cities would be difficult imo. It's hard enough to attract free agents to one Canadian city, even when this city is one of the biggest and wealthiest in the league.

Vancouver doesn't really strike me as a manic basketball town- which is what it would need to be for a Canadian franchise to survive and do well. They are so laid back and hockey-loving, a lot of people didn't seem to care one way or the other about an NBA ball club. They only remember Big Country Reeves and shrug.

So yeah, no basketball in Vancouver. I really don't think it's llikely.


As far as NBA cities just waiting to move though- i reckon Memphis whose owners are like the new Clippers & Milwaukee is on thin ice.
Well said, redred.

Many NBA players (of the non-international variety) make legions of excuses of not going up to Toronto: It's too cold and snowy. I don't want to live up there. Their money is in a funny multicolo(u)red manner. Their taxes are too high. They don't have ESPN up there so I can't watch Sportscenter (Canada has TSN, which actually has a special partnership with ESPN--logos are similiar and does have Sportscentre, Rogers Sportsnet, RaptorsTV, The Score, and FOX Sports World Canada). So you can imagine how a prospective NBA free agent would view Vancouver. Steve Francis was said that he was reluctant to go up to Vancouver when drafted because he would be away from his grandmother, and, given the immigration regulations from Immigrations Canada, he may have a point. Still, he should've sucked it up and go there IMHO. Quality of life is better up there.

One of things the players are ignorant or confused about is their knowledge of Canada. It's something not really integral to the American education system--that is, learning in depth about many nations outside of the United States. Generally speaking, many of us Yanks are ignorant about Canada. If you find an American out on the street and quiz them on who is the current PM of Canada and what party he or she leads (Stephen Harper of the Conservative Party in this case), let alone the oppositional parties and their leaders, the provinces and their premiers (synonmous with our governors in the US), and the cities except for Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. You'll get nothing; it's only someone like me presents themselves in one's knowledge that makes us, well, stand out in our knowledge...and I have yet to visit Canada all my young life. Nor are many of us curious. I've learned about our northern neighbors ever since I was a child when I paid attention to every bit and detail like news and sports that came my way as well as watching the occasional Canadian TV show on PBS. We never think about what Canada has to say about us Americans, even though we both speak English but theirs is more Commonwealth-oriented. It would be nice if the NBA made a publication for those about to play in Canada regarding the basics in work, immigration, government, education, laws, and interacting with Canadians. But the NBA presumes other outlets can do it better dealing with living and working in Canada.

I told you this story previously a few years ago, but it bears repeating here: Anthony Avent arrives in Vancouver to play for the Grizzlies. A chauffer picks him up from the airport and goes into his limo. Along the ride through the streets of Vancouver, Avent notices the paucity of black people. He asks the limo driver, "Hey, where do all the brothers hang?" The limo driver responds jokingly, "Oh, the Grizzlies dressing room." That in a nutshell indicates how a lot of African-Americans don't see a lot of the black community in Vancouver and the rest of BC. Canada's black population--they don't like being called African-Canadians, I heard--is no more than 3%, but it's growing. And most of them are concentrated in Toronto, Montreal, and Halifax. That's not to say blacks don't exist all over Canada outside of those cities. They do exist in British Columbia, just not that many, but there is a history in that province that often gets overlooked. Plus, British Columbia is progressive.

I too don't get the impression that Vancouver, even during the Grizzlies years, is basketball-mad like Toronto. Toronto has more of a mature grassroots goings-on with that with more than sufficient media coverage to boot for the sport. There was support and a fan base as NBA basketball brings glamour. But Vancouver didn't have practice in pro basketball or consistent success in the CIS with UBC and SFU at the time to let it mature. Anything Vancouver was doing and performing would inevitably be compared to Toronto. Also, more importantly, Toronto has a much stronger corporate base than Vancouver to tap into and support major league teams longer to withstand inherit problems like a weaker loonie (by US comparisons). Albeit progressive and diverse, Vancity is laid back and beautiful with a lot to do there like hiking, fishing, rowing, jogging, cycling, and rollerblading--one of the healthiest cities in North America. Its pro sports roots lie more in ice hockey of course and soccer. Incidently, Vancouver Whitecaps and the Portland Timbers will make a Pacific Northwest pro sports triad again since 2001 when those two teams join the MLS in 2011 to duke it out with the already-existing Seattle Sounders.

To be continued...
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2009, 08:11 AM   #10
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Where did the info (or rumour) regarding the possibility of the Indiana Pacers going to Vancouver came from? Vancouver sports radio station TEAM 1040 AM CKST reported the story of Vancouver Canucks owner Francesco Aqulini and his sports company Vancouver Canucks Sports and Entertainment (formerly Orca Bay Sports and Entertainment) were interested in the Pacers. Again, let's treat it as a rumour assuming the Simon brothers couldn't work an agreement with Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board. And again, it would be a severe mistake if Indianapolis lost their team; the Pacers success in the ABA and its stellar of players up to Danny Granger helped put Indiana basketball on the map. Aqulini since won his case against former partners Ryan Beedie and Thomas Gagliardi in the Canadian Supreme Court over the ownership.

Fans packed the General Motors Place to see their fave BC son Steve Nash and his Phoenix Suns play against the Portland Trail Blazers, the only NBA team remaining in the Pacific Northwest, in a preseason game. The Trail Blazers spoiled the homecoming 111-93 in front of a sellout crowd who erupted everytime Nash made a good play.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2009, 08:49 AM   #11
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blog/...article1335635

Another something something about the Grizz's time in Vancouver. This time it's the evaluation of the draft picks the Grizzlies had from 1995 to 2000. In a virgin NBA market that Vancouver was at the time, it's not naive to believe the Grizzlies could draft some rookie star power. However, everything's so much easier in hindsight. Bryant Reeves had some folksy charm. Was Stu Jackson wrong to draft him in 95? No. Big Country had bulk and the soft hands in the eyes of many NBA scouts, and Vancouver probrably had the foresight that Shaq (and to a lesser extent, Arvydas Sabonis and Luc Longley) was coming to the West in a few years time. So there clearly was awareness that Vancouver should never be pushed around in the paint; that worked with Stu philosophy of building around a center as opposed to Isiah Thomas building around a PG like Damon Stoudemire in Toronto. But it was a mistake to give him that $65 million contract extension, and Reeves subsequentially ate himself out of the NBA. The latter was solely on him.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim was indeed talented and their best draft pick and player. But while Shareef was a capable of being an All-Star a few times even on a better team even if he wasn't (should've been one in Vancouver n, he was no franchise player--too low key and often got lost up there. Charles Barkley once said of The Future that he's the "rookie MVP" with Allen Iverson "the playground MVP" [sic]. To carry the team on his shoulders as the talisman was a miscast.

Mike Bibby turned out OK, but it took a departure to Sacramento with better talent surrounding him to show his steez. No impact superstar though. Antonio Daniels is better suited as a role player. Yes, we all know about Steve Francis and Stromile Swift saga (Francis was good until the injuries hit while Swift was an underachieving bust), but the draft classes in those years were poor.

Matter of fact, when you get right down to it, Vancouver's time in the NBA was a result of bad timing. Their drafts weren't that good--no true franchise players. What if Stu Jackson decided to bring aboard Victoria's own Steve Nash, either as a draft pick or in a trade, to Vancouver (actually offered three times)? During the years when they needed high draft picks and stars to sell the sport and sustain it, it couldn't happen. The draft classes weren't exactly stellar. Downright weak and horrible. What if there was another GM instead of Stu Jackson running the show? Would he pick Nash as part of a possible second first round draft pick? Had the owners hold on until the Canadian dollar rebounded up to par with the US dollar? What if the NBA didn't institute that onerous expansion first round draft rule agreement on both Toronto and Vancouver? Even if the Grizzlies were elsewhere like Las Vegas or Tampa Bay, I don't think the team would prosper in any case anywhere with the way the team was assembled. What if they held on after the expansion team draft agreement expired, got the #1 pick, and selected Yao Ming?

I disagree with the part that Michael Grange comments about the GM Place not being shared in revenue. At the time until 2001, both the Grizzlies and the Canucks were owned together by first Arthur Griffiths and then John McCaw. So I presume the suites there too were shared so they couldn't pick and chose. Yes, the Toronto Raptors made it partly due to shared ownership (eventually Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment), a bigger market, stronger corporate base, and a younger venue that is Air Canada Centre. But Vancouver couldn't catch the breaks that Toronto did with Vince Carter and Tracey McGrady, both developed faster than realized. I think maybe had the NBA expanded later, like what Mike suggests, in 2002, and no expansion agreement restrictions, really good draft players would be in store with true franchise potential. There was no stable and decent coaching or management team--Lionel Hollins was the most successful, percentage-wise. Pulling the plug so quick was a travesty. Why was Stu Jackson there? Has he admitted to his mistakes publicly? To be fair to Stu though, as I stated earlier, he didn't exactly have a cornicorpia of fresh young talent. Managing an expansion team in any pro team sport is never easy, but he committed a tremendous amount of damage through his awful, awful decisions and lack of creativity. Plus Otis Thorpe didn't really wanted to be in Vancouver (supposedly to provide veteran leadership)--and that showed when he played only 47 games in 1996-97 aging and surly up there, setting the stage for Francis' drafting and pouty refusal.

I believe another reason why players didn't want to play up there stems from the fact that the Vancouver basketball operations was developing a negative rep throughout the league with a sucky team reflecting that. Clearly not a reflection on the beautiful city. It's was almost like the Clippers, but even the Clips managed to make the playoffs once in a blue moon during Vancouver's time. Based on the sorry way the NBA treated Vancouver, revealed by David Stern's admission, I don't think the NBA wanted to see that city succeed. The Grizzlies didn't stand a chance; support was clearly there. Add a better quality GM and better draft picks and other players making at least a halfway competitive team, Vancouver could have a more Naismith Cup rivalry with Toronto...and Vancouver STILL drew better than a lot of other present NBA markets these days since with better teams! Demand from players to be there is low. Don't forget, there weren't many foreigners NBA stars back, but globalization was slowly but surely coming. The percentage of NBA players that were American was greater then than it is now. European, Asian, African, Canadian, Latin American, and Oceanian players don't care where they go in the NBA because they (generally) have a greater and wider worldview than sadly a lot of Americans. Every single one on the Vancouver rosters were American--no Canadians. Had they stayed, Vancouver would feature at least a couple of international talents on the team by now making meaningful contributions, reflecting on the changing demographics within Canada and the NBA an upside to Vancouver's pro basketball development. You think Hidayet Turkoglu, Yao Ming, Andrei Kirilenko, Pau Gasol, or Yi Jianlian would mope about Vancouver? Doubtful.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 22-01-2010 at 11:24 AM.
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2010, 11:46 AM   #12
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

We're only weeks away from the start of the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympic Games, Canada's first since Calgary 1988. And with that approaching, it got me thinking. If the Grizzlies were still up there right now as they should be, the team would locked away from Vancouver (and the General Motors Place, called the Canada Hockey Place for the duration of the Olympics) admist all the intensely high security and be undergoing an extensive road trip for at least a month, with the NBA All-Star Weekend in the Big D being any semblance of a break.

Looking back, it would've been better had they were anchored in the Pacific Division instead of being in the Midwest. I'm saying this on geographical grounds for the most part. Question becomes: Who would be willing to swap with them? Could Phoenix had done it? Probrably not, I think, Jerry Colangelo liked his rivalry with the Evil Laker Empire, and they were Midwest Division members until 1975. Not saying it would've been much easier for Vancouver: the Western Conference as a whole was chock-a-block with very good PFs and Cs at the time.

Got a little story I just read over at SI.com: during their inaugural season in a sellout home game against soon-to-be-72-win Chicago in November 1995. The Grizzlies were shockingly ahead of the Bulls in the fourth quarter. After hitting a jumper to bolster the lead, Derrick Martin had the gall to trash-talk to Michael Jordan, who was sitting on the bench, running his mouth saying to His Royal Airness, "I told you we're going to beat you tonight". Jordan almost immediately stood up and then checked himself back in the game. Then he proceeded to tell Martin, "Little man, I told you not to trash-talk me." And then His Airness proceeded to almost single-handedly beat Vancouver. During this, he later told one of Martin's teammates (heard from a fan at one of the end of the court), "Y'all can blame big mouth over there for your loss and y'all WILL lose tonight. I'mma make sure of it..." Classic MJ. Why did Martin do it? Martin was a young player back then and didn't know any better. Then again, he wanted what Jordan was made of and riled him up. Yeah, MJ graciously obliged. Martin and Vancouver barked up the wrong tree--Why, of all people, would he do that to MJ. Nonetheless, Vancouver fans were in awe and watched with bated breath what he would do next with the ball in his hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShNfeFxij28
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 24-04-2010 at 06:15 AM.
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-03-2010, 10:11 AM   #13
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

An important component to having a big-time pro sports franchise in a virgin market without a lot of tradition or grassroots in that sport is naming a charismatic head coach. Stu Jackson and Arthur Griffiths (possibly) didn't really do that with Brian Winters. In retrospect, his style and coaching philosophies were dull. But expansion team coaches tend to be sacrificial lambs, anyway. And Winters, a player known for defense in both his playing days and as an assistant, slightly outlasted Toronto's first coach Brendan Malone, another known longtime assistant. Then again, the pickings probrably were slim, I'd like to find out who else was interviewed for the dream of being Vancouver's first coach.

This brings me into this: the constant shuffling of coaches in the Vancouver years, which Winters' firing brought about, a bigger problem for them than just Winters. When that happens, it sends a message that the franchise has a philosophy but can't stick with it over the long haul. That adds to the mess the market was in. That means confusing the young players in your defensive and offensive schemes with subsequent coaching changes. Jazz coach Jerry Sloan made a note of this after a game against Vancouver there in their team's last season when he spoke to the Vancouver Sun. I think Vancouver could've used a "going young" route and develop a core of talented players (with some vets for leadership) for a several for the time of contention that the Charlotte Bobcats later used.

Oh, and I found out the other day that Michael Dickerson has returned to playing basketball by signing with a second division Spanish team.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2010, 09:23 AM   #14
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

It was inevitable that we would look into the Stevie Franchise saga that was an important part in the decline of the Vancouver Grizzlies. Despite Stu Jackson wonderfully drafted him and Steve refused, reportedly on the account that he would be separated from his grandmother, if I recall. And Immigrations Canada would not work on that matter. Anyhoo, Jackson and the rest of the Grizzlies staff brought over the rook to Vancouver and show him around the beautiful city. Francis bought several rap CDs there and dined with them. Definitely showed him the General Motors Place and all the Grizzlies artifacts like the clubhouse, selling him how he will be revered for his hard work and helping his teammates with his superstar talents if he said yes.

Jackson knew a can't-miss player like Francis does not come often for Vancouver to lift the fortunes of the franchise. Yao would not act like what Francis did if Vancouver was allowed to stay on for another season. But why did he drop the ball with Francis? Forcing his hand on Francis, though it would teach Francis a lesson, would make Jackson look bad, especially with the NBAPA. They missed surely some good players, even some international ones.

Your thoughts?
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-04-2010, 09:55 AM   #15
Cram
Nomadic Bum
 
Cram's Avatar
Default

Being that I'm living in Vancouver at the moment, I'd love if if there was an NBA team here. To have the option of going to so many games - and a chance to see every team - would be sweet. While its not really a hoops town, having a pro team here for 15 years, you imagine it would move closer to that.

Hockey does dominate here, and perhaps the town isnt big enough for 2 major league sides? Will be interesting to see how the White Caps go.
Cram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2010, 06:40 AM   #16
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

If you can, Cram, try checking out CIS college basketball home games at the University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser in suburban Langley. Well actually, Simon Fraser is going to the NCAA in D2. But the latter's there in Vancouver. Or how about the IBL's Vancouver BC Titans, who also call Langley home

Yeah, it's a shame that Vancouver does not have the NBA in their midst these days since 2001. If it stayed, Vancouver could've hosted an NBA All-Star Weekend, which it never got to do. Hosting that would cement Vancouver's emergence in pro basketball. Then again, Toronto hasn't done so yet with its much-stronger support for basketball. Vancouver doesn't, as the recent Winter Olympics shown, snow all that much and its kinda temperate, so it could hold some golf games at its links, for example. Trend is with the more recent All-Star Weekends is having them in Sun Belt cities, where the tourists can go and have those rounds of golf and other outdoor-like festivities. Wasn't really the case with Dallas, where snow was on the ground.

There actually is another major league team located in Vancouver before the Whitecaps join the MLS. And that's the British Columbia Lions in the Canadian Football League. Not really the NFL, it has significant differences from that, but it's pro. For that reason alone, Vancouver could support the NBA again, just needs to develop stronger hoops grassroots even further.

Yeah, 15 years of NBA basketball in Vancouver from 1995 would be nice.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2010, 06:15 AM   #17
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Vancouver Grizzlies' old home General Motors Place gets a name change to Rogers Arena

When I first read this story, I immediately thought of General Motors' struggling finances, even in Canada. But nothing really of the kind.

Recent times there have been significant changes in the names of sports arenas and stadiums largely due to shifting of the company's marketing focus or absorbed/going belly up. And this is not restricted to the USA and Canada. Not really been too keen on corporations having sports facilities named after them, despite them shelling out millions of dollars to name them, but I'm getting used to that for years. After all these years since 1995, it has been named the General Motors Place (except for the duration of the Vancouver Winter Olympics in February, it was named the Canada Hockey Place to comply with IOC guidelines). Because of this, it was affectionately known as "The Garage". Now the Vancouver Grizzlies' old home gets a new name. Nice to know that the Pacific Coliseum at the Pacific National Exhibition Park is still called such since its opening. But people will get accustomed to the change.

There's already a sports facility in Canada named after Rogers Communications, a major part of Canada's massive Official Olympic Host Broadcast Media Consortium for Vancouver 2010 and London 2012 with Rogers Sportsnet and OMNI--Toronto's Rogers Centre, formerly the SkyDome, of which I still call it as.

More from the CBC that actually mentions Rogers in the name change
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 06:18 AM   #18
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Vancouver NBA made its return months ago with a radical overhaul and much more beef in its features than just a forum. I haven't installed my two cents in for this, but I hope so soon. This is a great place for info regarding them; they even archived stuff from the old Vancouver-era Grizzlies official NBA website and added a blog on the developments looking back on the Vancouver Grizzlies and news on a potential NBA return.
http://vancouvernba.org

Lately in basketball circles, when the subject of Vancouver and the NBA is brought up, a growing number of the movers and shakers express support for a Vancouver return, despite some saying no way. Charles Barkley is among the most recent voices declaring so. He even went as far as saying he would like to see more NBA franchises in other Canadian cities. Problem with that last statement is, outside of Montreal, the other Canadian cities, despite in a few of them having NBA-ready venues like Ottawa's ScotiaBank Place, Calgary's Pengrowth Saddledome, and Winnipeg's MTS Centre, are medium-sized or small in population and market; do they have the needed streams of revenue to keep them for years on end compared to bigger metropolises, mostly located south of the border. Few like Halifax's Halifax Metro Centre, home of the PBL's Halifax Rainmen, have no luxury boxes at all. Also, do these cities each have a strong grassroots local basketball culture to tap easily into? There's CIS basketball programs and provincial basketball federations, both of which helps and will offer support, but that's not enough. I do know for a fact that Quebec City has plans underway for a new arena project that's really more for the NHL's possible return to that city.

Vancouver will have another taste of NBA basketball coming up next month with a preseason game at the Rogers Arena (formerly General Motors Place) on October 6 when the Phoenix Suns and hometown British Columbia hero Steve Nash return to the city as they face Canada's only NBA team the Toronto Raptors, making their first appearance to Vancity since the Grizzlies' move to Memphis in 2001 ended the Naismith Cup rivalry. For Toronto coach Jay Triano, a Vancouver native and of the greatest Canadians to play basketball making his own homecoming to BC, he helped finalized a deal to have the Raptors' training camp over in Vancouver and 10th anniversary Canadian men's Olympic basketball reunion.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/R...447/story.html
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2010, 08:05 AM   #19
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

What kind of impact did the Vancouver Grizzlies had in their time there on the college basketball programs in the British Columbia Lower Mainland (UBC, Simon Fraser, Trinity Western, and, to a lesser extent, Victoria and VIU (both at nearby Vancouver Island), UFV, and UNBC) and vice versa? Since I've only seriously followed CIS basketball for several years now, it is a really interesting question to ponder and haven't really done any research to check on that. I can say with great certainly that, while not really exponentially ushering those programs to becoming big-time NCAA-like level status and with all that entails within Canadian borders, money, issues, upscale arenas, problems and all, it did help bring further attention and planted an important layer to basketball's development in British Columbia. If you really follow CIS basketball for eons and eons, you would know that there were important moments that, in their own small ways, helped paved the way for the NBA's arrival in BC. For example, think about that legendary CIS dynasty of the Victoria Vikings that ruled Canada from 1979 to 1986 that featured the great Eli Pasquale, who famously mentored Victoria's own Steve Nash, and was one of the great Canadian basketball products in his time. Jay Triano was certainly another mainstay for Vancouver basketball donning the maple leaf and is a Simon Fraser legend, but he never tasted a CIS title. UBC won two titles in three years from 1970 to 1972. In the early days of that, the Victoria women managed a threepeat from 1980-82 and won again in 85, 87, and 91. During the Grizzlies' time in Vancouver from 1995-2001, Victoria was the only team of the ones mentioned that won it all (TWU, UFV, UNBC, and VIU haven't thought of themselves as members yet. Simon Fraser dabbled with the NAIA in this time frame.), even in the women's game where it won twice in that span (and won again in 2003).

The Vancouver Grizzlies, for its all-too-brief stay there, did help bring publicity, however miniscule, to a sport that was, while growing in popularity even before its arrival, basketball roots weren't as strong as ice hockey, baseball, or even soccer. The hope was for the inertia to bring bigger pub to those schools and help cultivate an even stronger basketball base and depth. Vancouver residents who weren't or aren't much basketball fans could have been encouraged to check the teams out with the Grizzlies in the air. Since the move, Simon Fraser women's team became a national powerhouse with its five titles and UBC enjoyed a memorable rivalry against the Clan with the Bronze Baby being theirs in 2004, 2006, and 2008, seemingly alternating with SFU as the two battled for the best recruits out of BC. The British Columbia Thunderbird men's team are a two-time runner up in the W.P. McGee Trophy Game, though surely they would like to win it all this season. There are interesting aspects to this we can cover them every now and then. Even Simon Fraser's departure to the NCAA D2, college basketball is still strong in BC. Don't know of any Grizz players attending any of the games, but it would have been nice to see them giving support.

When the Vancouver Grizzlies were shown on TV, the broadcasters were BCTV, a CTV affiliate now BC's Global representative CHAN-TV since August 2001, and CHEK-TV 6 in Victoria. Then CHEK solely and then CTV Sportsnet Pacific (now Rogers Sportsnet Pacific), Canada's first regional sports network, airing 25 games each of the last three seasons from 1998. CTV showed some games including the first two games. If they were still there, I can assure you CBC would air select games and so will Rogers Sportsnet Pacific and Raptors NBA TV (it would been called something else in BC maybe GrizzliesTV or NBATV Canada) and The Score, like it is with the Raptors nowdays. On the radio side, Grizzlies matches were on in their first years, CKNW AM, also owned by then-Grizzlies owner Arthur Griffiths, held their broadcasting rights but actually aired game of the week simulcast with CKLG, where the bulk of their games were. At that time both stations were under different ownership. In subsequent years, Grizzlies games were on CFMI 101 FM with the final year's radio broadcaster being, to coincide with the first full year of Heisley's ownership, CISL 650 AM.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2010, 09:42 AM   #20
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

From the April 27, 1994 edition of the CBC Evening News

http://archives.cbc.ca/sports/more_sports/clips/17191/

Vancouver Canucks owner Arthur Griffiths, as head of the Vancouver Basketball Partnership, announces the NBA will make its way to Vancouver in 1995 that got conditionally approved on Valentine's Day that year. Analysts at the time were wondering how could Vancouver absorb the multi-million dollar endeavor (worth C$125 million at the time) with the projected C$100 million it will produce for the city's economy. One worried it could affect the CFL's BC Lions, which of course, didn't happen; the Lions are still around. Also, note the rare sight of the Vancouver Mounties cap.
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 15-10-2010 at 09:50 AM.
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2010, 09:51 AM   #21
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

At the time of the Vancouver Grizzlies' move to Memphis in June 2001, the Canadian dollar (or the "loonie" as it's so affectionately called there) was 67 cents to the US dollar. Now, it is between 90-95 cents to the US greenback, now closer to par. Moreover, the BC economy wasn't really at one of its finer points then in 2001. Vancouver has prospered during the last decade economically. You would think now's a good time for the NBA to return in Vancouver, as long as it stays favourably for Canada.

When Bryant "Big Country" Reeves arrived to Vancouver's Lower Mainland, he had a down home charm that really appealed to Vancouver basketball fans in its first few years there as a new NBA area. Hell, his popularity back then was big that fans, men and women alike, were treated to discounted or free tickets to Grizzlies home games outside the GM Place when they got crewcut haircuts just like him! His rookie season, though it sure had a lot of lengthy bumps along the way for the team as a whole, was very promising with an average of 13.3 ppg and scoring was up 16.3 ppg in 1997 with 41-point performance against Boston. He even fished with Ahmad Rashad along downtown Vancouver's waterway on NBA Inside Stuff. To be fair to Stu Jackson, at the time, there several, notable big bulky centers at the time, especially out in the Western Conference, the Grizzlies had to contend with Shaq, Arvydas Sabonis, and Luc Longley; the team would be weak at center without someone like him to at least counter that in some way to withstand punishment. Expansion teams are weak to begin with, and it was Jackson's philosophy to supposedly build around a center whereas, meanwhile in Toronto, Isiah Thomas built around Rookie of the Year PG Damon Stoudemire. Plus, from an evaluation from The Sporting News 1994-95 NBA Preview, Bryant possessed "soft hands" for scoring. What was problematic lied in the mistake, of course, in granting Big Country that massive contract and always-cited (as one of the major problems that led to Vancouver's demise) six-year $61 million extension. Weight-control problems and subsequent injuries took its toll on him (like his back forcing him to retire shortly after the Memphis move), prompting a dramatic drop in his numbers and field goal percentage. Ike Austin ended up being the starting center with Reeves demoted to backup, thus losing some of his minutes. Though he played well as such, the starting center-like contract didn't justify it. Surely, he looks back on it and would admit the criticisms from fans, the Vancouver media, and the execs were justified toward him and would take respeonsibility. If only he'd keep his weight under control, because he was so likeable there, he could have been more productive and consistently to have Vancouver them improve and make at least get a sniff of the playoffs.

Vancouver Sun's Brad Zeimer conducted an interview with owner Michael Heisley recently reflecting on the Grizzlies' move and the factors that led to it, saying that the "O Canada' singing owner "never really intended to move the team" after buying them. Personally, I think he's lying, but what else is he going to say upon reflection when he knew the exchange rate wasn't favorable...and still losing money in Memphis, just not as much. The team still haven't won a playoff game. On the Vancouver end, there's no love lost .
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2010, 10:45 AM   #22
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

The full game of the Vancouver Grizzlies' memorable home game against the Chicago Bulls in November 30, 1995 during the early days of the Bulls' unstoppable march towards history recently got uploaded. They had the lead and a potential upset, but Derrick Martin had to run his big, fat mouth at Mike. You know what else happened afterwards; it only added to Vancouver's seemingly endless misery. Footage taken from WGN, Chicago's superstation. If somebody could upload the first Grizz games, I'd be happy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOBieMRCxk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=119MfRMT9Qg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab-xKZwTcUI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK0OqkTEs7E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PAOyL9hiuw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug-pIp71xZI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVBnRsCRBE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEWS-6POTUo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDvNaU2vwE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op2iw4PgL2I

Former Vancouver Grizzlies guard Antonio Daniels attempts his NBA comeback by starting with the new NBDL's Texas Legends. Visit the NBDL thread to a link on that.

Get yourself a Mike Bibby Vancouver Grizzlies Hardwood Classics road jersey from Adidas:
http://www.sportsmemorabilia.com/spo...ck-jersey.html
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 11:25 AM   #23
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Another preseason NBA game in Vancouver featuring one of British Columbia's favorite children, Steve Nash, and another round of talks lamenting Vancouver and the NBA. When the Raptors played a scrimmage for the fans at UBC's War Memorial Gym as part of their training camp there, it was hard to gauge the interest of Vancouverites for a return to the NBA as part of that. Not sure if there is a Toronto-Vancouver love-hate rivalry thing, but overall there is a difficult basketball culture if you're a Vancouver resident with no constant NBA presence there acting as an anchor. So Vancouver coming back to the NBA is not a realistic option for now.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...039/story.html
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2010, 02:51 PM   #24
bucky
Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durbansandshark View Post
Another preseason NBA game in Vancouver featuring one of British Columbia's favorite children, Steve Nash, and another round of talks lamenting Vancouver and the NBA. When the Raptors played a scrimmage for the fans at UBC's War Memorial Gym as part of their training camp there, it was hard to gauge the interest of Vancouverites for a return to the NBA as part of that. Not sure if there is a Toronto-Vancouver love-hate rivalry thing, but overall there is a difficult basketball culture if you're a Vancouver resident with no constant NBA presence there acting as an anchor. So Vancouver coming back to the NBA is not a realistic option for now.
http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...039/story.html
Quote:
By holding training camp in Vancouver this year, the Raptors tried to re-ignite that spark, to mixed results. The Raptorsí open scrimmage could not fill the 3,000-seat War Memorial Gymnasium at the University of British Columbia. There were few signs around town that the team was even here.
I moved to Vancouver 2 months before the Raptors open scrimmage and never once saw a single sign or anything else promoting it, Nor did anyone else I know here. Sad really because I would have been there with a few people but I actually found out about it on a message board the day after .

I think the NBA could work here but as you said, there is no NBA presence on TV. Yes you can see Raps games on sportsnet 1 but its rarely talked about on sportscentre (on TSN) or any other programs and even the much anticipated Miami @ Cleveland game is burried on TSN 2 which I and a lot of other people dont have.

On a good note for Vancouver and the NBA is the recent release of the Grizzlies hardcourt classics jerseys. When I was at the sports shop the owner said they sold all but the XXL jerseys the day they arrived so clearly there are still NBA fans about.
bucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2011, 09:06 AM   #25
Durbansandshark
Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I moved to Vancouver 2 months before the Raptors open scrimmage and never once saw a single sign or anything else promoting it, Nor did anyone else I know here. Sad really because I would have been there with a few people but I actually found out about it on a message board the day after .

I think the NBA could work here but as you said, there is no NBA presence on TV. Yes you can see Raps games on sportsnet 1 but its rarely talked about on sportscentre (on TSN) or any other programs and even the much anticipated Miami @ Cleveland game is burried on TSN 2 which I and a lot of other people dont have.

On a good note for Vancouver and the NBA is the recent release of the Grizzlies hardcourt classics jerseys. When I was at the sports shop the owner said they sold all but the XXL jerseys the day they arrived so clearly there are still NBA fans about.
Raptors' games are broadcast not just on Rogers Sportsnet (12 games a season as of 2010-11). TSN shows 23 Raptors games--along with many and various others of the NBA regular season games shown on ESPN and TNT it gets first dibs on with exclusive Canadian TV rights on the conference finals and the NBA Finals. TSN 2, the newer sports channel for the CTVglobemedia family that owns TSN that began airing last year, gets 25 Raptors games with the ESPN/TNT regular season NBA games (including most of the TNT Thursday games) and the playoff matches that aren't on TSN. Rogers Sportsnet One airs 23 games a season with plus 35 other NBA regular season games. It also airs 22 playoff games. Though it doesn't air any Raptors games at all, Raptors TV, the Canadian version of NBATV there, shows various NBA, NBDL, and FIBA games that are on ESPN, TNT, and NBATV, as well as some playoff games. CBC, CTV, City TV, and The Score, the latter being a Canadian sports network itself losing soem rights on some entities lately that could spell its demise, formerly Toronto Raptors games in recent years.

Good to see Vancouverites still holding some fondness to the Grizzlies and their time there by selling out the Mike Bibby jerseys. Apparently, enough time passed for there's some genuine curiousity about the city's short-lived NBA connection.

How Vancouver's generally classy fans gave their unprosperous Grizzlies franchise a more deserving sendoff from the Lower Mainland than it perhaps deserve, record-wise. Big Country gets a game ball for being there the longest and playing in the Vancouver Grizzlies' 100th victory. Yeah, the NBA fans and some of the young players at the time like Shareef there truly deserved better, no need for that to be mentioned.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...2337/index.htm

Here's another major reason why Vancouver didn't succeed: it takes a while, perhaps generation or two, in a city like Vancouver to be educated about a sport like basketball, where it isn't quite fertile there, to gain a strong foothold in the local culture. Sure, there are plenty of NBA fans living there, and the NBA has such a strong brand and support being right there at the major sports explosion boom during the 1990s. But there are lots of casual ones there too, just like everywhere here in North America. Even soccer is more established there with the Whitecaps, partially owned by British Columbia fave Steve Nash, coming to play this year in the MLS. The name holds a lot of tradition with the franchise won the 1979 NASL Soccer Bowl. Truth be told, the Grizzlies aren't Vancouver's first foray into pro basketball; its predecessor back in 1988 endured even worse support in a venue that wasn't ideally suited for basketball as their better choices wanted more $$$ than the owners could give them (Rogers Arena wasn't built yet)...and yes, the team was woeful and sorrier and only lasted a season with an even worse attendance for home games and endured personnel changes of its own that would rival the Grizz. Furthermore, like the Grizzlies, there's always a wonder what if a notable native Canadian (now a coach in the NBA) would've played. I present to you the Vancouver Nighthawks from the 6'4" and under World Basketball League.
http://archive.vancourier.com/issues01/02501/sport1.htm
__________________
Jusqui'ici tout va bien...

Last edited by Durbansandshark; 12-02-2011 at 06:43 AM.
Durbansandshark is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 12:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Design and logos copyright ©2000 - 2010, Dek-Net Design