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Old 20-07-2016, 04:03 PM   #51
BellBivDevoe
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Yeah, if Essendon or Collingwood had the Anzac game taken off their schedules there'd be outrage, I'm not really sure how this is any different.

Cairns getting a game on NYE has become a tradition, and I don't see any reason it couldn't have continued.
There would be outrage.....from the EFC and CFC.

The AFL could still preserve homage to the ANZACs by making it Richmond @ Melbourne this year.

No one outside of Collingwood and Essendon would care.

I suppose you could call the Cairns NYE game a tradition, but there are no contracts in place stating Cairns must have one NYE game every year.

This year it is at Brisbane, one could argue that having such an important game at Brisbane represents a potential for more revenue and more exposure for a 'new' club? Wouldn't that be better for the league overall?

I'm not suggesting Cairns don't deserve a chance to earn extra revenue.

ALL teams deserve a chance to earn extra revenue, not just Cairns.
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Old 20-07-2016, 04:21 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
No one outside of Collingwood and Essendon would care.
Are you serious?

Nobody's arguing the league had a legal obligation to give Cairns a NYE game. But if the best argument you can come up with in favour of taking a course of action is 'it's not actually illegal', you should probably rethink taking that course of action.
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Old 20-07-2016, 06:12 PM   #53
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Are you serious?

Nobody's arguing the league had a legal obligation to give Cairns a NYE game. But if the best argument you can come up with in favour of taking a course of action is 'it's not actually illegal', you should probably rethink taking that course of action.
I put forward several arguments.

- A tradition isn't a legal contract.
- Cairns shouldn't feel like an NYE home game is owed to them.
- If the NYE game is such a nice earner, shouldn't other teams get a chance to benefit from this?
- This year's game is in Brisbane. This event could help build a new franchise. I don't know the BCEC's seating array but it looks similar in size to Cairns.
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Old 20-07-2016, 10:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
- A tradition isn't a legal contract.
- Cairns shouldn't feel like an NYE home game is owed to them.
Neither of these things is relevant, nobody is operating under the assumption that they're owed anything. Although, again, the NBL only doing the bare minimum to uphold its legal obligations to Cairns is still poor.

Quote:
- If the NYE game is such a nice earner, shouldn't other teams get a chance to benefit from this?
- This year's game is in Brisbane. This event could help build a new franchise. I don't know the BCEC's seating array but it looks similar in size to Cairns.
There were two games on NYE last season, and three the season before that. Cairns having one doesn't stop anyone else having one. Further, there may be local factors that make it a better earner in Cairns than elsewhere, the tradition of it being one of those.
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Old 21-07-2016, 12:13 AM   #55
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Neither of these things is relevant, nobody is operating under the assumption that they're owed anything. Although, again, the NBL only doing the bare minimum to uphold its legal obligations to Cairns is still poor.
It became relevant when we see...

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Originally Posted by King Podge View Post
Bell having something for 13 continuous years, establishing itself as a bellwether and it being taken away without any solid reasoning... along with a generally ordinary draw (arguably worse than last years).
and.....

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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Yeah, if Essendon or Collingwood had the Anzac game taken off their schedules there'd be outrage, I'm not really sure how this is any different.

Cairns getting a game on NYE has become a tradition, and I don't see any reason it couldn't have continued.
The tone of the 2 quoted passages suggests :

a) its been going for 13 years and should continue without any other consideration.

b) Its become 'tradition' (with comparison to Essedon V Collingwood ANZAC clash), therefore it should continue without any other consideration.

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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
There were two games on NYE last season, and three the season before that. Cairns having one doesn't stop anyone else having one. Further, there may be local factors that make it a better earner in Cairns than elsewhere, the tradition of it being one of those.
Doesn't Cairns having one mean their away opponent is prevented from having their own home NYE game?

Its possible there are factors at play which make it special in Cairns but isn't it possible that other clubs might want to share in or start their own NYE tradition?
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Old 21-07-2016, 01:51 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
a) its been going for 13 years and should continue without any other consideration.

b) Its become 'tradition' (with comparison to Essedon V Collingwood ANZAC clash), therefore it should continue without any other consideration.
You're inventing the 'without any other consideration' thing out of thin air.

But in terms of it being a priority...yeah, those are good enough reasons.


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Doesn't Cairns having one mean their away opponent is prevented from having their own home NYE game?
They don't play the same team every year. But even if we wanted to be completely fair and give everyone turns at NYE...Perth Arena is unavailable, Cairns can host the Wildcats every NYE. Problem solved.

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Its possible there are factors at play which make it special in Cairns but isn't it possible that other clubs might want to share in or start their own NYE tradition?
Sure. Nobody is stopping them.
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Old 21-07-2016, 01:25 PM   #57
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BellBivDevoe - You have cleverly manipulated my response to your original claim that the Taipans didn't seem to have an “unlucky” draw, by selectively quoting part of a sentence to claim that Taipans posters seem to feel they own the NYE game. The post I made listed the home schedule the Taipans were given, which clearly shows it's not a particularly fan friendly draw and that the NYE game is only PART of the problem.

You have decided to focus on my use of the word “taken” (in reference to the NYE game) rather than read or acknowledge what the rest of that sentence\paragraph said, which was basically that the rest of the draw is not particularly fan friendly either (thus making it difficult for the Taipans to attract the attendances they need to) and one would think the NBL would have made some effort to at least have made the rest of the draw reasonably fan friendly.

As far as sharing the NYE game around, given the Taipans have had it for so long and given Wollongong have also had it for a few seasons (including retaining it this season) it seems to me that it may not be a great drawcard for other city based clubs otherwise I suspect there would have been strong objections to them not having access to it well before this.

It may well work in Brisbane if their venue is close to where other NYE activities are going on and they are entitled to have a game on NYE but it's not better for the league overall if the Taipans suffer financial losses from losing their NYE game, on top of the losses they may suffer from the unfriendly draw (from a crowd drawing perspective).

@koberulz has made some good points about why it was reasonable for the Taipans to retain the NYE game but I make the point again, the post I made which started this argument\discussion was not about losing the NYE game, it was about the unfriendly home draw the Taipans have been given which could make it very difficult for them financially.
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Old 21-07-2016, 02:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
You're inventing the 'without any other consideration' thing out of thin air.
OK...what other consideration other than 'tradition' has been given to giving Cairns the NYE every year?

If you are suggesting Cairns could do with the extra income, wouldn't that also apply to the other 7 clubs?


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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
They don't play the same team every year. But even if we wanted to be completely fair and give everyone turns at NYE...Perth Arena is unavailable, Cairns can host the Wildcats every NYE. Problem solved.
That could work, but as you said, the NBL changes it up every year. Perhaps its a policy.

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Sure. Nobody is stopping them.
Excellent...lets allow the fans of Brisbane enjoy the NYE game in 2016 then.
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Old 21-07-2016, 02:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
OK...what other consideration other than 'tradition' has been given to giving Cairns the NYE every year?
I don't know, I don't work for the league. But given that the tradition does exist, there's certainly reason for it to be a priority over a completely random draw, so it'd be things like venue availability moreso than this absurd notion of giving everyone else a go.

Quote:
If you are suggesting Cairns could do with the extra income, wouldn't that also apply to the other 7 clubs?
As Twinkletoes points out, NYE games have been in Cairns and Illawarra for years. Townsville have had a couple. If the bigger cities thought it would do as well for them as it does for the regionals they'd have tried it before now.

And, again, there's more than one NYE game to go around.

Quote:
That could work, but as you said, the NBL changes it up every year. Perhaps its a policy.
Not any more a policy than giving Cairns the game in the first place. It being an away game there's really not much need to worry about it.

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Excellent...lets allow the fans of Brisbane enjoy the NYE game in 2016 then.
There can be more than one game on NYE.
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Old 21-07-2016, 04:20 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
BellBivDevoe - You have cleverly manipulated my response to your original claim that the Taipans didn't seem to have an “unlucky” draw, by selectively quoting part of a sentence to claim that Taipans posters seem to feel they own the NYE game. The post I made listed the home schedule the Taipans were given, which clearly shows it's not a particularly fan friendly draw and that the NYE game is only PART of the problem.
It was not my intention to manipulate this discussion in any negative manner.

It had already addressed the unlucky draw issue with

Quote:
Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
Is the draw that unlucky?

Last season you had 3 Thursday games and 2 Wednesday games, this year also 3 Thursday and 2 Mondays.
The only part I did not address in your response is the 5 Sunday games vs none last year. I don't know the attendance of Sunday games Vs Friday or Saturday night games.

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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
You have decided to focus on my use of the word “taken” (in reference to the NYE game) rather than read or acknowledge what the rest of that sentence\paragraph said, which was basically that the rest of the draw is not particularly fan friendly either (thus making it difficult for the Taipans to attract the attendances they need to) and one would think the NBL would have made some effort to at least have made the rest of the draw reasonably fan friendly.
I have focused on that word because it formed partly the rationale for keeping the NYE game. I didn't refer to thefan friendly aspect because I felt I had already done so to FreeThrows regarding the count of Thursday/Wednesday games.

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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
As far as sharing the NYE game around, given the Taipans have had it for so long and given Wollongong have also had it for a few seasons (including retaining it this season) it seems to me that it may not be a great drawcard for other city based clubs otherwise I suspect there would have been strong objections to them not having access to it well before this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I don't know, I don't work for the league. But given that the tradition does exist, there's certainly reason for it to be a priority over a completely random draw, so it'd be things like venue availability moreso than this absurd notion of giving everyone else a go.
I think this sharing it around point has been jumped on a bit too much. I didn't mean to suggest that the NYE game must be shared out equally, rather, as Cairns has had a good run with it, is it a big deal they don't have it for 2016? And as a team like Brisbane is available for NYE, why not give them a chance to promote themselves and earn some extra coin?


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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
It may well work in Brisbane if their venue is close to where other NYE activities are going on and they are entitled to have a game on NYE but it's not better for the league overall if the Taipans suffer financial losses from losing their NYE game, on top of the losses they may suffer from the unfriendly draw (from a crowd drawing perspective).
When you suggest "Taipans suffer financial losses from losing their NYE game", again it implies that that income should be guaranteed theirs in perpetuity. It isn't. Shouldn't Cairns, and indeed all other clubs accept there will be seasons where the draw favours them crowd-wise and seasons that don't?

As far as good crowd days and bad crowd days are concerned, I tried to find some data to indicate whether Sunday games are poor attendance days, as that would sway my opinion that Cairns got a bad draw given they have 5 on top of 5 Monday / Thursday games.

I wasn't able to find any conclusive evidence.

http://www.austadiums.com/sport/comp_results.php?sid=4
http://www.austadiums.com/stadiums/s...owds.php?id=25

If we group the homes games to Friday/Saturday and Other than (Friday/Saturday) :

In 2016/17

Adelaide 4
Cairns 10
Illawarra 5
Melbourne 9
NZ 7
Perth 4
Sydney 7
Brisbane 7

In 2015/16

Adelaide 6
Cairns 5
Illawarra 9
Melbourne 10
NZ 9
Perth 5
Sydney 8
Townsville 9

Sum of both seasons

Adelaide 10
Cairns 15
Illawarra 14
Melbourne 19
NZ 16
Perth 9
Sydney 15

Cairns enjoyed a good run in 2015/16, not so much 2016/17, but over the 2 years Cairns aren't at the top of those receiving less crowd friendly games. Its Kestleman owned United which has 19 non-Friday/Saturday games.

TL;DR - If we consider Sunday games unfriendly, Cairns has a poor draw this year. But over the last 2 years it evens out significantly.
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Old 21-07-2016, 05:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
Cairns has had a good run with it, is it a big deal they don't have it for 2016?
Yes it is (for reasons already explained) particularly WHEN you take into account the overall home game schedule they have been given (as previously explained).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
And as a team like Brisbane is available for NYE, why not give them a chance to promote themselves and earn some extra coin?
No one is saying Brisbane shouldn't have a NYE game (as koberulz has pointed out more than once)

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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
When you suggest "Taipans suffer financial losses from losing their NYE game", again it implies that that income should be guaranteed theirs in perpetuity. It isn't.
It suggests nothing of the sort. It is simply stating a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
Shouldn't Cairns, and indeed all other clubs accept there will be seasons where the draw favours them crowd-wise and seasons that don't?
To a certain extent, yes, but not an effective double whammy like the Taipans have received this season in losing their stand out game plus being dished up an ordinary draw.

To be honest, I feel you are being argumentative for the sake of it. At times you are just making stuff up and you are repeatedly bringing issues up that have already been addressed.

The reality is the Taipans are entitled to be very annoyed at losing the NYE game and with the general home draw they have been given and they would now be working on trying to make the best of the situation.

Perhaps you need to do what you told Podge you do at the traffic lights and that is accept that you have a red light (instead of being straight out argumentative and rehashing issues that have already been satisfactorily answered), roll with it and move on.
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Old 21-07-2016, 06:08 PM   #62
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There's also the fact that whatever arrangements the Taipans had with the league, they were confident enough in having an NYE game to reserve their venue for that date. If that's the case, there may be financial consequences for canceling, and it's likely that other financial projections have assumed the existence of an NYE game.

Not to mention that Townsville got utterly shafted last season, and Cairns getting the same treatment this season doesn't seem like a coincidence.
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Old 21-07-2016, 06:10 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
No one is saying Brisbane shouldn't have a NYE game (as koberulz has pointed out more than once)
But if Brisbane is playing Cairns, and you want Cairns to have the stranglehold on the NYE game, isn't that taking the NYE game as a home game from Brissie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
To be honest, I feel you are being argumentative for the sake of it. At times you are just making stuff up and you are repeatedly bringing issues up that have already been addressed.
Not sure what you mean for the sake of it, I have an opinion, you have an opinion, we're discussing it in a civil manner. I haven't made anything up either, also not sure where I have been doing that.

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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes View Post
The reality is the Taipans are entitled to be very annoyed at losing the NYE game and with the general home draw they have been given and they would now be working on trying to make the best of the situation.
And thats all I have been suggesting they do, accept, roll with.
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Old 21-07-2016, 10:24 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
But if Brisbane is playing Cairns, and you want Cairns to have the stranglehold on the NYE game, isn't that taking the NYE game as a home game from Brissie?
There are more than two teams in the league.
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Old 25-07-2016, 06:29 PM   #65
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@BellBivDevoe, one important aspect of scheduling games on occasions like NYE is that for a city/team to really be able to make the most of such an event, it is important that punters are going to put bums on seats. Sharing the thing around to teams where the stadium is not likely to be close to other NYE events may mean that those games don't actually get significantly higher revenue for the home team. When it is in Cairns, that game is pretty much a guaranteed sell-out.

Cairns does not have the same capacity as the big city teams to draw big sponsorship dollars. When businesses see the lack of capacity for the team to draw big crowds to games, they are less likely to commit money to the club. That's one disadvantage of being in a small market. The crowd stats that you see on sites like austadiums.com must include season ticket holders as crowd members at games, because they don't actually count punters at games, so please don't quote those as accurate figures as to how many have turned up. People who go to games know that games on nights other than Friday and Saturday do not draw many punters, and advertisers know this, too. It's bums on seats they are looking for, not statistics, because statistics don't buy their products, people do.

Boys and girls, let's put a lid on this, please. It's become little more than a slanging match and it's clear that @BellBivDevoe has a difference of opinion to just about everyone else who has posted here about the NYE game not being played in Cairns this year. I'm sure we all welcome different points of view, and @BellBivDevoe has made some valid points.

Can we talk about basketball again, please?
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Old 25-07-2016, 07:25 PM   #66
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Whenever people are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellBivDevoe View Post
discussing it in a civil manner.
There's always someone who, instead of self-censoring, tries to tell everyone what to do:
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Originally Posted by FreeThrows View Post
Boys and girls, let's put a lid on this, please.
In as patronising a manner as possible.
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Can we talk about basketball again, please?
This conversation is about basketball and there is no more appropriate thread to talk about the Taipans' draw. You have an entire forum to play in to find something you like. You'd be better served putting your own lid on it, rather than trying to dictate to everyone that your level of tolerance for this subject is the only one that matters and everyone else should stop talking to one another about it.
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Last edited by mattic; 25-07-2016 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 25-07-2016, 07:27 PM   #67
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Has the NBL indicated why Cairns lost the NYE game? Or did it never occur to them that there was anything to lose? i.e., they simply "did the draw" and NYE games just came up with the rations?
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Old 25-07-2016, 10:03 PM   #68
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Someone elsewhere mentioned a comment being made by the NBL on their Facebook page in response to someone asking the question, in which they essentially said they were sharing the 'marquee' games around.

So basically, they did it for no reason whatsoever, given Melbourne still gets the Boxing Day open-air game and it's possible to play multiple games on one night.
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Old 26-07-2016, 03:20 PM   #69
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Also worth noting is that on Australia Day, Taipans are playing in New Zealand. Why? Why would any team be playing in NZ on Australia Day?
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Old 26-07-2016, 05:47 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Someone elsewhere mentioned a comment being made by the NBL on their Facebook page in response to someone asking the question, in which they essentially said they were sharing the 'marquee' games around.

So basically, they did it for no reason whatsoever, given Melbourne still gets the Boxing Day open-air game and it's possible to play multiple games on one night.
I don't have FB, I don't even know how to use it properly to navigate or link. I had no idea there already was a conversation at the NBL FB page.

Here is some old school cut and paste.

Rebel Warren What is the deal NBL???? Cairns has had the NYE game for years, why do you think it should go to the new team in a city where people already have plenty to do?? Do you not really care about the crowd attendance in Cairns? First the early tip off, especially the weekday games, some of us get to those games in the second quarter, not happy about that last season or this, (If i were not a loyal Taipans fan I WOULD NOT renew our membership, I am sure that's what you count on or you just don't care about the fans in general, shame on you.
Notice you are answering the positive comments but not those from the Cairns fans.................

NBL Response

NBL Hi Rebel we have not announced our game times as yet however we are focussing on prime time slots for our evening games. In relation to the NYE game we understand Cairns fans are disappointed however we need to cater to NBL fans nationally and our broadcasters so have introduced a rotation process for our marquee games in order for all fans to enjoy them. Cairns will be part of that rotation process for future marquee games.

Followed by...

Maurice Tomasic NBL What a load of rubbish!!!! Your only just looking after the BIGGER cities, so don't start using salesmen/politician like words to get out of it... 13 YEARS of tradition Cairns have had the new years eve game and all you can say is a ROTATION process!!!!!!!! We all know were your executive director use to play and who he's looking after.....

Whilst the trending outrage leans inevitably towards "You kill tradition", "You favour big cities" and of course..."You want Cairns gone".....the NBL did put a reason across reason.

"we need to cater to NBL fans nationally and our broadcasters so have introduced a rotation process for our marquee games in order for all fans to enjoy them. Cairns will be part of that rotation process for future marquee games.

I think the rationale is fair and reasonable.
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Old 26-07-2016, 06:15 PM   #71
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It's possible to give NYE games to other cities without taking it away from Cairns.

So no, that's not a good reason at all.
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Old 27-07-2016, 02:43 PM   #72
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It's possible to give NYE games to other cities without taking it away from Cairns.

So no, that's not a good reason at all.
If there are 2 NYE games in a year like this season, and Cairns claims entitlement to one of them, that leaves only one game where the 'rotation' can take place. If Cairns is demanding ownership of the NYE game, so can Illawarra, which leaves us with no rotations in the rotation friendly policy.

If there are 3 NYE games in a year with Cairns and Illawarra auto-claiming home games, that leaves 1 home game to rotate to the other 6 teams.

So with 3 game NYE nights every second year over 6 teams, thats a full rotation every 12 years.

You may not see an issue with that, but the league does.
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Old 28-07-2016, 12:20 AM   #73
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Perth's venue is unavailable that time of year, which takes you down to five teams.

Melbourne get their Boxing Day game every year, so they shouldn't get NYE as well, so you're down to four teams.

I don't believe Illawarra has that much of a tradition with NYE games, they've merely had a few over the years, so you've got two games to rotate between five teams, which seems entirely reasonable even assuming all five want a game on that night in the first place.

And again, arrangements were such that Cairns already had their venue booked. So something was presumably in place.
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Old 28-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #74
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You'd be better served putting your own lid on it, rather than trying to dictate to everyone that your level of tolerance for this subject is the only one that matters and everyone else should stop talking to one another about it.
There's no need to get nasty about it, @mattic. I'm just hoping that we can discuss the season ahead from the point of view of what's possible with the players, and if anyone has any idea what might be going ahead with potential new signings.

For what it's worth, I'm really dark at the league for the Taipans draw, and I'm sick of hearing people try to defend the NBL when they really do appear to have favoured certain teams with the draw. I also know that the Taipans home games are likely to be at 6:30pm (with the likely exception of Sunday afternoon games) and it sucks. I just don't think going on about it in this forum is going to have any effect on those issues and I'm sick of reading posts by @BellBivDevoe, but I can't stop myself from reading them and couldn't be bothered ripping him/her a new one.
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Old 28-07-2016, 12:02 PM   #75
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#IAmWithFreeThrows
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